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 The reason Master Saga sucked

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PostSubject: The reason Master Saga sucked   The reason Master Saga sucked EmptyThu Sep 03, 2009 3:38 pm

They made Dana Sterling, the main character so damn annoying. It's even a slap in the face to think that's the daughter of Max and Miriya...
Their daughter should of been Nova >.>
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PostSubject: Re: The reason Master Saga sucked   The reason Master Saga sucked EmptyThu Sep 03, 2009 9:26 pm

lol problem is, like it or not, that airheaded little shit Jeanne Francaix was the main character of Southern Cross, and so they had to TRY to give the main character of the saga some kind of arbitrary relationship to the characters from the Macross Saga... so they went with the only one who was known to have a kid... and bingo, we got ping-pong-head Dana Sterling.
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PostSubject: Re: The reason Master Saga sucked   The reason Master Saga sucked EmptyThu Sep 03, 2009 10:33 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
lol problem is, like it or not, that airheaded little shit Jeanne Francaix was the main character of Southern Cross, and so they had to TRY to give the main character of the saga some kind of arbitrary relationship to the characters from the Macross Saga... so they went with the only one who was known to have a kid... and bingo, we got ping-pong-head Dana Sterling.

oh shit sucks she had to be the main character
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PostSubject: Re: The reason Master Saga sucked   The reason Master Saga sucked EmptyMon Sep 14, 2009 10:51 am

Some of the fugly mechanical designs didn't help either...
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PostSubject: Re: The reason Master Saga sucked   The reason Master Saga sucked EmptyMon Sep 14, 2009 1:02 pm

Well i think as an alternate to the sucking part of the Masters Saga....I think the only thing i actually liked about that series was the wave file for the Cosmic Harp that Musica played. Other than that little tid bit i think that whole saga itself should be flushed lol.
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PostSubject: Re: The reason Master Saga sucked   The reason Master Saga sucked EmptySat Sep 19, 2009 1:04 am

Iceblue106 wrote:
Well i think as an alternate to the sucking part of the Masters Saga....I think the only thing i actually liked about that series was the wave file for the Cosmic Harp that Musica played. Other than that little tid bit i think that whole saga itself should be flushed lol.

no plumbing could handle the hair XD
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PostSubject: Re: The reason Master Saga sucked   The reason Master Saga sucked EmptySat Sep 19, 2009 6:46 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
lol problem is, like it or not, that airheaded little shit Jeanne Francaix was the main character of Southern Cross, and so they had to TRY to give the main character of the saga some kind of arbitrary relationship to the characters from the Macross Saga... so they went with the only one who was known to have a kid... and bingo, we got ping-pong-head Dana Sterling.

so the zentradi child-like intellect is a dominant trait?
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PostSubject: Re: The reason Master Saga sucked   The reason Master Saga sucked EmptyThu Oct 01, 2009 2:17 pm

Making Nova the Sterling daughter wouldn't have solved much of any problem: you'd still have Dana up and out there being annoying, which is the bigger problem than any "trashing" of her parents' legacy.

(and you still would have to explain how she went from teal to a natural hair colour) The reason Master Saga sucked Icon_rolleyes

Plus, well, as annoying as I find Dana, I do like it that for once in a blue moon, a "legacy character" wasn't a "cool" warrior that would follow in their parents' footsteps and bring honour to the family name and...I am so sick of children of the main characters being written that way. Dana was a little different, even if she still went into the military. For that I can complement her, even if it's just the product of serendipity and she's still as annoying as all heck.

(*Maia* Sterling, on the other hand, is just the kind of copycat child that I want to rant about).

The Masters Saga in general never grabbed me, except that I liked some of the visuals of the inside of the Tirolian ships: the characters were dull or annoying, everything was messy and convoluted, and a lot of the time, nobody seemed to make up their minds about anything.
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PostSubject: Re: The reason Master Saga sucked   The reason Master Saga sucked EmptyMon Oct 05, 2009 10:54 pm

incisivis wrote:
Making Nova the Sterling daughter wouldn't have solved much of any problem: you'd still have Dana up and out there being annoying, which is the bigger problem than any "trashing" of her parents' legacy.

(and you still would have to explain how she went from teal to a natural hair colour) The reason Master Saga sucked Icon_rolleyes

Plus, well, as annoying as I find Dana, I do like it that for once in a blue moon, a "legacy character" wasn't a "cool" warrior that would follow in their parents' footsteps and bring honour to the family name and...I am so sick of children of the main characters being written that way. Dana was a little different, even if she still went into the military. For that I can complement her, even if it's just the product of serendipity and she's still as annoying as all heck.

(*Maia* Sterling, on the other hand, is just the kind of copycat child that I want to rant about).

The Masters Saga in general never grabbed me, except that I liked some of the visuals of the inside of the Tirolian ships: the characters were dull or annoying, everything was messy and convoluted, and a lot of the time, nobody seemed to make up their minds about anything.

Yeah I know what you mean by that, even though she's annoying she isn't an ace unlike maia sterling.

And I'm not big on the masters saga but it did have its moments. I really liked marie crystal and musica.
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PostSubject: Re: The reason Master Saga sucked   The reason Master Saga sucked EmptyTue Oct 06, 2009 1:03 am

I'm going to have to sit on my hands about Maia. Maybe I'll start a thread in the Shadow Chronicles section.

Musica struck me as a typical shallow female love interest, but I like how she showed some initiative later on.

And it's always funny to me how at least two of the series Robotech snagged managed to have the theme of "become more than what you were": the Tirolian clones seem like "cousins" of the Zentraedi in that regard, and in many others.

I've been driven to do a lot of thinking about Tirolian clones, actually, since I've done a lot of developing of a minor Tirolian clone character from the novels: for my own nefarious purposes, but it's lead me to consider taking another look at the Masters saga, maybe someday.
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PostSubject: Re: The reason Master Saga sucked   The reason Master Saga sucked EmptyTue Oct 06, 2009 1:29 am

incisivis wrote:
I'm going to have to sit on my hands about Maia. Maybe I'll start a thread in the Shadow Chronicles section.

Musica struck me as a typical shallow female love interest, but I like how she showed some initiative later on.

And it's always funny to me how at least two of the series Robotech snagged managed to have the theme of "become more than what you were": the Tirolian clones seem like "cousins" of the Zentraedi in that regard, and in many others.

I've been driven to do a lot of thinking about Tirolian clones, actually, since I've done a lot of developing of a minor Tirolian clone character from the novels: for my own nefarious purposes, but it's lead me to consider taking another look at the Masters saga, maybe someday.

I've always found it interesting that the clones came in threes, although they looked alike, they still had different colored hair, eyes and clothing.
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PostSubject: Re: The reason Master Saga sucked   The reason Master Saga sucked EmptyTue Oct 06, 2009 1:26 pm

Actually Dana worked if you thought about it.

Left on Earth before her teen years (and spoiled probably by her parents).

Now she's runnign wild in and out of the military as the "Legacy child".

Nepotism and shit. Poor Emerson! poor Bowie!!!

That was all actually believable, she was ACTING OUT cause mommy and Daddy left her!

Maia is BORING cause there's no tension... She just a generic and over poportioned (figure) Sterling wanna be...

Dana was DYNAMIC!

IF masters sucked I'd say mainly it was Leonard. He made you hate the ASC.

He was a racist Tool and most important of all an IDIOT!

That combination means people are gonna die (your own!).
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PostSubject: Re: The reason Master Saga sucked   The reason Master Saga sucked EmptyTue Oct 06, 2009 3:22 pm

Yeah, I can see Dana being like that kind of kid: "acting out" because her parents left her, but as a goofball instead of the stereotypical delinquent.

But I don't want her to be all angsty--it's more like acting like a doofus is somewhat part of her nature, so she'd be that way even if she didn't have parent issues.

(Issues which the series material largely never touched on; a pity, when it could have been interesting.)

Furthermore, I think Dana's got a more "natural" combination of her parents' personalities: she's got Max's starry-eyed optimism and Miriya's hot-headedness, but it's more complex than that, and mixed with many things that are uniquely "Dana", which is how I think a child of established characters should be written.

This is all coincidental, since she was originally an unrelated character, but I like how it plays out, at lest on an abstract level. When it comes to seeing her directly, I mostly end up just wanting her to be quiet.
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PostSubject: Re: The reason Master Saga sucked   The reason Master Saga sucked EmptyWed Oct 21, 2009 2:13 am

Frankly, I preferred SC over Macross.

Some of the characterization was weak, but there were a few things in that part of series that were important to Robotech.

1. It tied the other two parts together, providing the motive for the Invid as well as an explanation for the Zentraedi.
2. It explained how the Earth got into such a position to be a cakewalk for the Invid.

That said, there's one thing I read into the series, that I used in my fanfics to full effect. If fuly incorporated into canon, it would make the series a bit more interesting.

Consider....

A. It's obvious that, in Robotech, Zor & Musica knew each other before they were clones.
B. In fact, the way that Zor Prime acts would indicate that there was a relationship between them.
C. Zor Prime's reactions to Dana would seem to indicate that there was something about her that reminded him of the pre-clone Musica.
D. The personality of said original Musica did not surface in her primary clone until after repeated exposure to Bowie, and never really broke out until the confrontation with Karno, during the evacuation in the last battle.
E. During the capture & rescue of Zor Prime, he had ALL of his memory restored - but by the dialogue, they had not assimilated it. In other words, he effectively now had BOTH the memories (and personalities) of Zor and Zor Prime - and those two personalities were in conflict - something that we see all the way up to his last scene.
F. One can easily see Zor's betrayal of Bowie & Musica as being the ORIGINAL Zor personality acting out of jealousy. How he was acting after the point where Nova showed up would seem that the "old Zor" went passive after that, until it came time to go to the mounds.
G. At the mounds, up until right before the end, the "old Zor" was calling the shots - especially in the "kill everything for revenge" mode. Only in the wake of completing said vengence, did the Zor Prime persona resurface, and it was that persona that acted to save the person the he had fallen for in his new life, and try to save the survivors of their people - something that the original Zor probably wouldn't have been so willing to do - unless, of course , he had come to terms that the new Musica was not "his" Musica, but a new, independent person with a life of their own to lead.

Additional:
H. One option, that I use in my fics, considers the ancestry of the Zentraedi - what if Miriya was partially descended in some manner from Musica? not a true clone, but an in-vitro creation of genetics combining Musica with at least one other. After all, to get the variability we see in the Zentraedi, they probably crossed everyone possible on Tyrol's DNA in the creation process, to keep a fleet from having, say, 100,000 Khyrons running loose. One only has to look at George Lucas' prequel fiasco to see the problems with having too many "clones" of the same person.
I. Another fun take in this direction, not exclusive of the other, involves the non-series-canon non-human characters with connections to Zor. If the original Musica died saving Zor, before the original Zor's death, he was probably under arrest when the body was disposed of. As a result, when the Masters finally do send Zor out to seed planets, he'd be pretty much alone, except for his Zentraedi slaves (going by the Graphic Novel, which Macek stated point blank at the time was considered to be series canon, just not cost-effective to animate - he also indicated that the material would have been animated, had his vision for the series going circular occurred as planned, with the last episode animated of a Robotech II or IV series beingthe events leading to the crash on Earth).
- If you're pretty much going to be cooped up in your command center/quarters, guarded to keep from going rogue, you'll want companionship. It's pretty obvious that Janice Em (Sentinels version) was WAY above the technology that Lang or anyone else on Earth could make (c.f. the Golem bot fiasco in SC). What if Lang only PROGRAMMED her, and he had found her, shut down (possibly disassembled) on board the SDF-1 shortly after the crash. Perhaps, then, not realizing that the Masters were cloning Musica, he attempted to BUILD himself a replacement for her. When that did not go well, he shut her down.
- Another possibility (not exclusive of the other) was that he programmed the ship's computer to be an emulation of his interpretation of Musica, including the programming to attempt to aid the people of the world he would be sending the ship to, if he died (as he forsaw) to the Invid. Perhaps, even, the "Janice" body was a remote body for said computer. The computer would have loyalty only to Zor, and then to his heirs on Earth - which put her in a precarious position when the Masters show up with a scout force in 2027 (2 years prior to the events in Episode #37), and attempt to use her to bring down Earth's ability to resist by causing a new global war. Of course, by this time, she'd be calling herself Eve Tokimatsuri, and be using a computer avatar to watch over her new home...

In both cases, the AI's are surprisingly musical for simple constructs - and tying them into Zor's mutated visions of his past life would further strengthen the overall story (not to mention why in Sentinels, Janice seemed to gravitate toward Rem, instinctively, beyond even Lang's plans).
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PostSubject: Re: The reason Master Saga sucked   The reason Master Saga sucked EmptyWed Oct 21, 2009 2:29 am

Basara549 wrote:
Frankly, I preferred SC over Macross.

Some of the characterization was weak, but there were a few things in that part of series that were important to Robotech.

1. It tied the other two parts together, providing the motive for the Invid as well as an explanation for the Zentraedi.
2. It explained how the Earth got into such a position to be a cakewalk for the Invid.

That said, there's one thing I read into the series, that I used in my fanfics to full effect. If fuly incorporated into canon, it would make the series a bit more interesting.

Consider....

A. It's obvious that, in Robotech, Zor & Musica knew each other before they were clones.
B. In fact, the way that Zor Prime acts would indicate that there was a relationship between them.
C. Zor Prime's reactions to Dana would seem to indicate that there was something about her that reminded him of the pre-clone Musica.
D. The personality of said original Musica did not surface in her primary clone until after repeated exposure to Bowie, and never really broke out until the confrontation with Karno, during the evacuation in the last battle.
E. During the capture & rescue of Zor Prime, he had ALL of his memory restored - but by the dialogue, they had not assimilated it. In other words, he effectively now had BOTH the memories (and personalities) of Zor and Zor Prime - and those two personalities were in conflict - something that we see all the way up to his last scene.
F. One can easily see Zor's betrayal of Bowie & Musica as being the ORIGINAL Zor personality acting out of jealousy. How he was acting after the point where Nova showed up would seem that the "old Zor" went passive after that, until it came time to go to the mounds.
G. At the mounds, up until right before the end, the "old Zor" was calling the shots - especially in the "kill everything for revenge" mode. Only in the wake of completing said vengence, did the Zor Prime persona resurface, and it was that persona that acted to save the person the he had fallen for in his new life, and try to save the survivors of their people - something that the original Zor probably wouldn't have been so willing to do - unless, of course , he had come to terms that the new Musica was not "his" Musica, but a new, independent person with a life of their own to lead.

Additional:
H. One option, that I use in my fics, considers the ancestry of the Zentraedi - what if Miriya was partially descended in some manner from Musica? not a true clone, but an in-vitro creation of genetics combining Musica with at least one other. After all, to get the variability we see in the Zentraedi, they probably crossed everyone possible on Tyrol's DNA in the creation process, to keep a fleet from having, say, 100,000 Khyrons running loose. One only has to look at George Lucas' prequel fiasco to see the problems with having too many "clones" of the same person.
I. Another fun take in this direction, not exclusive of the other, involves the non-series-canon non-human characters with connections to Zor. If the original Musica died saving Zor, before the original Zor's death, he was probably under arrest when the body was disposed of. As a result, when the Masters finally do send Zor out to seed planets, he'd be pretty much alone, except for his Zentraedi slaves (going by the Graphic Novel, which Macek stated point blank at the time was considered to be series canon, just not cost-effective to animate - he also indicated that the material would have been animated, had his vision for the series going circular occurred as planned, with the last episode animated of a Robotech II or IV series beingthe events leading to the crash on Earth).
- If you're pretty much going to be cooped up in your command center/quarters, guarded to keep from going rogue, you'll want companionship. It's pretty obvious that Janice Em (Sentinels version) was WAY above the technology that Lang or anyone else on Earth could make (c.f. the Golem bot fiasco in SC). What if Lang only PROGRAMMED her, and he had found her, shut down (possibly disassembled) on board the SDF-1 shortly after the crash. Perhaps, then, not realizing that the Masters were cloning Musica, he attempted to BUILD himself a replacement for her. When that did not go well, he shut her down.
- Another possibility (not exclusive of the other) was that he programmed the ship's computer to be an emulation of his interpretation of Musica, including the programming to attempt to aid the people of the world he would be sending the ship to, if he died (as he forsaw) to the Invid. Perhaps, even, the "Janice" body was a remote body for said computer. The computer would have loyalty only to Zor, and then to his heirs on Earth - which put her in a precarious position when the Masters show up with a scout force in 2027 (2 years prior to the events in Episode #37), and attempt to use her to bring down Earth's ability to resist by causing a new global war. Of course, by this time, she'd be calling herself Eve Tokimatsuri, and be using a computer avatar to watch over her new home...

In both cases, the AI's are surprisingly musical for simple constructs - and tying them into Zor's mutated visions of his past life would further strengthen the overall story (not to mention why in Sentinels, Janice seemed to gravitate toward Rem, instinctively, beyond even Lang's plans).

Interesting points you've made regarding SC, some I kinda had a feeling about myself especially the past relationship with the original Zor and Musica.
It's good to see a different point of view from someone who is a fan rather than someone who just doesn't like it. For me, SC had its highs and lows, but just like any of the three series. Also judging by what you've posted here regarding your fanfics really makes them sound like quite an interesting read.
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PostSubject: Re: The reason Master Saga sucked   The reason Master Saga sucked EmptyWed Oct 21, 2009 5:43 am

I kinda liked Masters, personally. It was no Macross, sure, but what is? Pretty much all the criticisms in this thread are valid, but for the most part I didn't think they were enough to ruin it; sure it was a bit of a mess at times, the characters weren't as fleshed out as Macross's and the mech designs were worse (though I liked the hovertank, and thought using a helicopter was a pretty cool idea) but I still enjoyed it.

As for Dana, I kinda liked her. Sure she was a goofball, and rather irresponsible, but she was also energetic and enthusiastic and I thought all of those traits came together to make her a character that was fun to follow. She's the kind of person I'd probably find grating IRL but don't mind so much in fiction.
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PostSubject: Re: The reason Master Saga sucked   The reason Master Saga sucked EmptyWed Oct 21, 2009 6:39 am

BTW, about 12 years ago, I got into a chat with someone who grew up outside a US military base, either in Japan or Korea (I think it might have been the latter). They got introduced to Robotech from its airing on the Base's TV station.

Their comment was something like -

"The Macross part was really wierd, since they were messing with the definition of Protoculture, and other odd things. The Mospeada stuff was practically unchanged. But the really wierd thing was Southern Cross - somehow, in adding it in to bridge between the other two series, they did what many of us thought was impossible. THEY MADE SOUTHERN CROSS FINALLY MAKE SENSE..."
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PostSubject: Re: The reason Master Saga sucked   The reason Master Saga sucked EmptyWed Oct 21, 2009 9:38 am

Basara549 wrote:
BTW, about 12 years ago, I got into a chat with someone who grew up outside a US military base, either in Japan or Korea (I think it might have been the latter). They got introduced to Robotech from its airing on the Base's TV station.

Their comment was something like -

"The Macross part was really wierd, since they were messing with the definition of Protoculture, and other odd things. The Mospeada stuff was practically unchanged. But the really wierd thing was Southern Cross - somehow, in adding it in to bridge between the other two series, they did what many of us thought was impossible. THEY MADE SOUTHERN CROSS FINALLY MAKE SENSE..."

lol well that's a bonus for Robotech I guess also if it weren't for RT SC wouldn't have gained this much popularity. However it is too bad HG neglects it because it's not as big as the other two.
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PostSubject: Re: The reason Master Saga sucked   The reason Master Saga sucked EmptySat Dec 19, 2009 2:47 am

I have both the original Super Calvary Southern Cross, and Masters (The collectors one). I like both for what they are, but I'll be the first to admit, Masters makes the animation of Calvary, make sense! Too much story was never fleshed out in Calvary, and that is to me, what hurts the storyline the most. I'd love for some one to post up notes and stories from the production team of Calvary! That might help shed some new light on the series.
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